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es/pip
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:41 pm

foreman01 wrote:As to asking MO to chat with me, I said I would put together a presentation and present it to others which I hoped would include MO. But he is the senior teacher in this thread and I would rather have one of more of his successful students try to explain what they are doingin their own words.

espip said: "I disagree with this statement 100%. This thread contains information that you cannot put a price tag on, and is hardly "ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting". "

I didn't mean to tweak you. Sorry. I did say "MANY of which are ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting. " "Many" not "all" I'm pretty sure that some, many, most or all would agree that at least some (if not "many") of the posts and pictures in this thread are not helpful.

So some of you can look at somebody else's trade; and say, "good job" and "on the 5 minute you had another chance to enter a little while later," etc. There are obviously some objective criteria that CAN be explained with words. Probably orally easier for most than by writing it all out.

Certainly it can be quantified to some extent. Otherwise there would not be so much agreement. Indeed, more than one trader has commented that he/she "does things a bit different" than others in regards to drawing zlines etc . If one recognized how they are doing things differently than there is something objective that is being analyzed. Otherwise what does one compare it too in order to assess "same" or "different."

I'm pretty good at explanations to almost anyone once I have a grasp of the material. Thus my offer. I consider a fairly nice offer, since it generally takes me hours and sometimes days to make a quality set of handouts and power point presentations that clearly express a set of ideas, and yet the presentation is usually less than an hour.

I envision some slides that might say:
For example: "In this situation trader1 draws a zline here because .... ; trader2 prefers here because .... "

I can't believe that there is anyone here -- successful or not -- who can't give an explanation of why they are drawing a zline, or defining a candle as a momo, or entering a trade.

When I practice trading with my boy I say, I am drawing a support line here because ...., and a resitance line here because .... The 4 hour trend is ...., but there is a long shadow and a bullilsh engulfing pattern .... Our risk to reward ratio is about 2/1 based on support and resistance. etc and so let's trade here with a stop here etc.


The explanations each of us gives for why we do something may be flawed, but we ought to be able to explain it. Its not a divine mystery.

A highly skilled educator said to me "If you can't explain it, then perhaps you don't understand it."


i am not tweaked at all. I just say what i am thinking instead of sugar coating it for people. its just how i am.

this debate could go on and on with no end to it

you say,

"I can't believe that there is anyone here -- successful or not -- who can't give an explanation of why they are drawing a zline, or defining a candle as a momo, or entering a trade."

and i say

i cant believe that no one can understand that the zl is drawn to show held profit. I cant believe that people cannot understand that momo is defined by a bar's body size relative to other bars body size.

you say

"A highly skilled educator said to me "If you can't explain it, then perhaps you don't understand it."[/quote]"

i say,

He is an educator not a trader. Trading has nothing to do with smartness. Sometimes highly educated people cannot understand this for some reason. They want it to always be 2+2=4, but sometimes it is 2+2=6 and it just is, there is no reason why. Trading is an art not a science.

i still do not agree that this can be explained like you want to do it. All the info is in the thread. How is it that 10 or so random people have come to understand it and not others? Ask monolisa, aliasmith, zap, dragon, fxtrav, pablo, fxjedi or anyone else i left out to explain it and what you are going to get is

body in direction of profit wick in direction of loss

trade in the direction of profit

momo shows the way

if it does not happen on consecutive bars treat it like s/r and trade away from it

a mz is 2x previous bar 50%-- any line can be a zl in that area.

zl mz are not entry techniques they are reference points/areas create your own entry technique


do not take this the wrong way, but have you read the entire thread and put what we have on our charts on yours?

again i may come of harsh or pissed at times but i am not. Its just how i am.
Last edited by es/pip on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cfabian
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Postby cfabian » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:46 pm

You may be right at some extent, but you also talking like an educator that you are, and yes is possible things could not be said in words... It happens to me very frequently as I'm not a skillful speaker, while I'm good at numbers. Many times I understand things I cannot explain in words, like many people just cannot get why 2 + 2 = 4



foreman01 wrote:As to asking MO to chat with me, I said I would put together a presentation and present it to others which I hoped would include MO. But he is the senior teacher in this thread and I would rather have one of more of his successful students try to explain what they are doingin their own words.

espip said: "I disagree with this statement 100%. This thread contains information that you cannot put a price tag on, and is hardly "ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting". "

I didn't mean to tweak you. Sorry. I did say "MANY of which are ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting. " "Many" not "all" I'm pretty sure that some, many, most or all would agree that at least some (if not "many") of the posts and pictures in this thread are not helpful.

So some of you can look at somebody else's trade; and say, "good job" and "on the 5 minute you had another chance to enter a little while later," etc. There are obviously some objective criteria that CAN be explained with words. Probably orally easier for most than by writing it all out.

Certainly it can be quantified to some extent. Otherwise there would not be so much agreement. Indeed, more than one trader has commented that he/she "does things a bit different" than others in regards to drawing zlines etc . If one recognized how they are doing things differently than there is something objective that is being analyzed. Otherwise what does one compare it too in order to assess "same" or "different."

I'm pretty good at explanations to almost anyone once I have a grasp of the material. Thus my offer. I consider a fairly nice offer, since it generally takes me hours and sometimes days to make a quality set of handouts and power point presentations that clearly express a set of ideas, and yet the presentation is usually less than an hour.

I envision some slides that might say:
For example: "In this situation trader1 draws a zline here because .... ; trader2 prefers here because .... "

I can't believe that there is anyone here -- successful or not -- who can't give an explanation of why they are drawing a zline, or defining a candle as a momo, or entering a trade.

When I practice trading with my boy I say, I am drawing a support line here because ...., and a resitance line here because .... The 4 hour trend is ...., but there is a long shadow and a bullilsh engulfing pattern .... Our risk to reward ratio is about 2/1 based on support and resistance. etc and so let's trade here with a stop here etc.


The explanations each of us gives for why we do something may be flawed, but we ought to be able to explain it. Its not a divine mystery.

A highly skilled educator said to me "If you can't explain it, then perhaps you don't understand it."
WILL GET MY MONEY BACK FROM THOSE BASTARDS, AND I MEAN IT !!!!!
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Postby kc8flq » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:49 pm

es/pip wrote:
body in direction of profit wick in direction of loss

trade in the direction of profit

momo shows the way

if it does not happen on consecutive bars treat it like s/r and trade away from it

a mz is 2x previous bar 50%-- any line can be a zl in that area.


do not take this the wrong way, but have you read the entire thread and put what we have on our charts on yours?

again i may come of harsh or pissed at times but i am not. Its just how i am.


Its that straight line explaining that has helped me to see it, along with putting whats on your charts on mine.
Foreman, if you haven't read the entire thread, you're missing the heart of it all. It's a learning curve that you're NOT going to get by reading a PP presentation or small document.
Give a man a fish.... feed him for a day...
Teach a man to fish.... feed him for a LIFETIME!!!

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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:08 pm

spa wrote:on hindsight the chart tells a formidable story, but real time i can see where cfabian is coming from, happens to me every other day also chart below



this is why it is discretionary you have to trade based on what the market is saying and not just on the zl or mz

i can see if one wanted to take a short trade there that it would not be wrong---and out at b/e or very small loss.

but what is happening in the background--what is the market saying where is the true long trade

h1----

we came down made a low--------- marked a

bounced --hardly made a lower low --------b

moved up more than the prev rally----c

came back into a zl and a h&s pattern-------d

i was not thinking short

that is where the long trade should have been and where i took it



Image
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:14 pm

cfabian wrote:Actually I was about to close the trade at that white support line, but to be honest I didn't as down momo on higher TF was big, so didn't really think it would harm me that much.

So, when you see a formation like that, which could be a support area, will you still trade it, or wait to see how price reacts at it???? Meaning if price bounce up, you find another entry at better price at the time that ZL has been canceled clearing the way down, but if price breaks that support, you find another entry point, but with worse price?



es/pip wrote:
cfabian wrote:""#$%!"#$

Really not fair.... I was in this trade, with +12, aiming for the price it is targeting now, moving down in consistent steps. Then my boss told me to go to his office. Oohhh boy... when will this stupid things end up????

H1 formation was good as well, but that freaking long kick stopped me out with a loss. Can you see a better entry, or a sort of explanation as to why should I have waited? Or any anticipation it would go up there?

Image


Image



for me

we have come down a long way if i was going to take that trade--- i did not, was trading the pound and euro---- i would be really conservative and be looking for a reason to get out due to how far we have come down.

its hard to say bec i was not watching it in real time so it is hindsight now


once support was found based on the white zl and we had an increase of momo off it i would most likely been out and looking for another entry-----arrow down--

Image



yeah pretty much.

had all this p/a happened way up before the huge sell off i would have probably not been concerned with that 5 min bar and taken a stop on it. But since it came so far down, if i am going to attempt to trade it i am going to looking for ANY reason to tell me i may be wrong---close it and then get in at a worse or better price(if there is room to my target still) depending on the PA
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:24 pm

kc8flq wrote:
es/pip wrote:
body in direction of profit wick in direction of loss

trade in the direction of profit

momo shows the way

if it does not happen on consecutive bars treat it like s/r and trade away from it

a mz is 2x previous bar 50%-- any line can be a zl in that area.


do not take this the wrong way, but have you read the entire thread and put what we have on our charts on yours?

again i may come of harsh or pissed at times but i am not. Its just how i am.


Its that straight line explaining that has helped me to see it, along with putting whats on your charts on mine.
Foreman, if you haven't read the entire thread, you're missing the heart of it all. It's a learning curve that you're NOT going to get by reading a PP presentation or small document.



and that's the truly ironic part of it. In the very beginning MO said all of the straight line comments---- over and over again. It is all there in the first part of where he starts talking about it.

I learned all of this from those comments and then put what he had on his charts on mine--- and the rest is history

not many other people saw it so i attempted to post a lot of charts and try to explain what cannot be explained in words-- for 8 months.

if you are not willing to study what he wrote and put his stuff on your charts then save yourself the time and look at something else. If you do not work at it and experience it for yourself you will never see it.
Last edited by es/pip on Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bend over and assume the position for another 4 years of hope and change.

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Postby Fxtraveller » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:35 pm

This is completely off topic, but....

Just to show you a chart, and possible consequences of not trading without a SL
(I lost over a 1000 pips worth 20% (which took 4 months to gain thorugh carry) of my live a/c, which took me right back at my initial capital).

The 20-year low is (WAS) approx. the red line :shock: :shock:

I counted on a massive rebounce... it didnt happen.

looking at the chart NOW, im happy I had the guts to withdraw my positions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and gents, even an all time historic low/high is not an excuse to trade without a SL !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh where oh where is the bottom? =]
Attachments
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Postby flinux » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:40 pm

Image

More pips for me!!!
Z-Lines rocks.
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:13

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Postby cfabian » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:02 pm

....... and I bet you quintupled your account this week right... your best week ever!!!!!!!!



es/pip wrote:i am honestly just beyond words at this point


"daddy" is all i got :D


these are going to be the last charts from me for awhile. Still be here posting but i am not going to flood it anymore with charts.

i am glad to see that some more people are able to see what MO has presented.

I hope that my charts helped some to see it. Again i do it a little different so i hope i didn't confuse anyone.

I truly believe that me showing how i do it helped my trading by giving back----- that's not why i did it---just a result of it.

if you don't get it by now i am not sure what else to say or show for that matter

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
WILL GET MY MONEY BACK FROM THOSE BASTARDS, AND I MEAN IT !!!!!

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Postby marypipins » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:16 pm

es/pip


I also would like to say thank you, I read your posts everyday and it has helped me greatly. I think I am almost there and can begin to see and that is because of you and many others. This way of trading is more of an art than a science, so each of us has to form it to the way we think and see things but I think all and all we are all on the same page.

By the way..stop drinking straight from the bottle..take some of your winnings and buy some nice glassware and an ice bucket, we may not be rich yet but we can start to get the feel of it..lol

Lisa
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