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es/pip
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:03 pm

foreman01 wrote:I occurs to me as a professional educator that I could probably make a very useful tutorial that would explain this better than some of those who do not teach for a living could do.

If es/pip or anyone who is trading using zlines and momentum candles successfully, would care to chat with me for a half hour I will put together a power point show with probably just a few slides and very clear annotations, circles, arrows, lines, zoom ins on larger time frame charts etc.

Then I will run the draft by a couple others that know what they are doing, and post it.

PM me if you want to call me or have me call you.

Randy Foreman

PS
As a academic reference librarian it would be inconceivable for me to say to a student, "The answers to your questions are found here in this set of 650 pages of pictures and comments, many of which are ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting. Please read through it at least three times and check back with me next month."


foreman01 wrote:es/pip,

If you indeed going to stop posting may I make a request?

I teach computer skills (for legal research) using screen shots, circles, arrows, and some text.
I find that I can always find a better way to explain exactly what I mean.
Later some of those same students will come up to me at the reference desk (I'm a law librarian) and ask me the same stuff I showed them. I sometimes have to dumb it down a lot. I have to define stuff that I figure after two years of law school they ought to know.

So perhaps before you stop posting you could make your best ever presentation of exactly why you enter the trade. Perhaps even defining your terms: zline, mightzone, etc.

Assume perhaps that the readers have not followed the thread for the last 500 pages (since MO entered the thread), or even your posts for the last two or three months.

Perhaps it's an unreasonable suggestion.


I can appreciate where you are coming from on some of that.

If MO or someone else wants to take you up on that then that is obviously up to them. I however would not be interested in doing that. For the following reasons



1. This is not my stuff. It is MO's, me doing that would just be wrong and weird. Not that it could be done anyway.

2. I really do not think that it can be "explained". It is not a system. It does not have a set of rules. It is discretionary and that cannot be taught, it has to be experienced for one to come to understand it.


"PS
As a academic reference librarian it would be inconceivable for me to say to a student, "The answers to your questions are found here in this set of 650 pages of pictures and comments, many of which are ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting. Please read through it at least three times and check back with me next month." "

I disagree with this statement 100%. This thread contains information that you cannot put a price tag on, and is hardly "ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting". It is all laid out on a silver platter, all one has to do is spend the time on it. People in general want the easiest way to do things. Why read 600 pages when it could be condensed into xx pages? Because, the value of reading each post as it relates to other charts or commentary that was posted is too valuable not to.

I am not some abnormally smart person that "figured" it out. I dropped out of school after 2 years with a 2.9 gpa. I have most likely killed more brain cells than everyone on this board combined. :D It is all there in the thread. After the 10,000 charts that have been posted with explanations there is nothing else to "show".

Those that do not see it think there is a trick to it. There is no "trick" to it. Ask any of the other people that have come to understand zl and mz how to explain it. I guarantee you they say the same stuff that is in these pages.

Let me ask this to those that have just come to understand it. I can't remember the names off hand of everyone.

In all honesty, does it just hit you after looking at it enough? Can it be explained any other way?


Trading this way cannot be taught, you are either a trader or you are not. However, the info in this thread can help someone turn the corner and be a trader if they were not one to start with.
Bend over and assume the position for another 4 years of hope and change.

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es/pip
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:06 pm

Fxtraveller wrote:es/pip

I am asking myself the same question. all strategies up to now would fail, because of hard stops, because of Moving Averages, because of this and that.... but.....
once volatility decreases, there will still be momo, breakouts, trades zlined.... so could this be an eternal "method/practice" ?



as long as you stay discretionary and do not start thinking "method" or "system"


have to trade what it does not what you think it will do
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cfabian
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Postby cfabian » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:06 pm

""#$%!"#$

Really not fair.... I was in this trade, with +12, aiming for the price it is targeting now, moving down in consistent steps. Then my boss told me to go to his office. Oohhh boy... when will this stupid things end up????

H1 formation was good as well, but that freaking long kick stopped me out with a loss. Can you see a better entry, or a sort of explanation as to why should I have waited? Or any anticipation it would go up there?

Image


Image
WILL GET MY MONEY BACK FROM THOSE BASTARDS, AND I MEAN IT !!!!!
"WAIT FOR PRICE, WAIT FOR PRICE, WAIT FOR PRICE"

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es/pip
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:25 pm

cfabian wrote:""#$%!"#$

Really not fair.... I was in this trade, with +12, aiming for the price it is targeting now, moving down in consistent steps. Then my boss told me to go to his office. Oohhh boy... when will this stupid things end up????

H1 formation was good as well, but that freaking long kick stopped me out with a loss. Can you see a better entry, or a sort of explanation as to why should I have waited? Or any anticipation it would go up there?

Image


Image



for me

we have come down a long way if i was going to take that trade--- i did not, was trading the pound and euro---- i would be really conservative and be looking for a reason to get out due to how far we have come down.

its hard to say bec i was not watching it in real time so it is hindsight now


once support was found based on the white zl and we had an increase of momo off it i would most likely been out and looking for another entry-----arrow down--

Image
Bend over and assume the position for another 4 years of hope and change.

spa
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Postby spa » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:28 pm

es/pip wrote:

as long as you stay discretionary and do not start thinking "method" or "system"


have to trade what it does not what you think it will do

this is where i get stuck, my mind after a couple years of chart watching is wired to look for setups although this should be second nature after looking for breakout setups so far

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Postby spa » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:46 pm

on hindsight the chart tells a formidable story, but real time i can see where cfabian is coming from, happens to me every other day also chart below
Attachments
eu.gif
few thoughts on the eurusd chart
eu.gif (32.74 KiB) Viewed 1164 times
ej.gif
ej.gif (26.83 KiB) Viewed 1182 times
Last edited by spa on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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foreman01
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Postby foreman01 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:06 pm

.....
Last edited by foreman01 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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kc8flq
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Postby kc8flq » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:12 pm

es/pip wrote: I have most likely killed more brain cells than everyone on this board combined.


Aint no way!! :smt005
Its amazing what you get exposed too in the navy :shock:
Give a man a fish.... feed him for a day...
Teach a man to fish.... feed him for a LIFETIME!!!

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cfabian
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Postby cfabian » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:39 pm

Actually I was about to close the trade at that white support line, but to be honest I didn't as down momo on higher TF was big, so didn't really think it would harm me that much.

So, when you see a formation like that, which could be a support area, will you still trade it, or wait to see how price reacts at it???? Meaning if price bounce up, you find another entry at better price at the time that ZL has been canceled clearing the way down, but if price breaks that support, you find another entry point, but with worse price?



es/pip wrote:
cfabian wrote:""#$%!"#$

Really not fair.... I was in this trade, with +12, aiming for the price it is targeting now, moving down in consistent steps. Then my boss told me to go to his office. Oohhh boy... when will this stupid things end up????

H1 formation was good as well, but that freaking long kick stopped me out with a loss. Can you see a better entry, or a sort of explanation as to why should I have waited? Or any anticipation it would go up there?

Image


Image



for me

we have come down a long way if i was going to take that trade--- i did not, was trading the pound and euro---- i would be really conservative and be looking for a reason to get out due to how far we have come down.

its hard to say bec i was not watching it in real time so it is hindsight now


once support was found based on the white zl and we had an increase of momo off it i would most likely been out and looking for another entry-----arrow down--

Image
WILL GET MY MONEY BACK FROM THOSE BASTARDS, AND I MEAN IT !!!!!

"WAIT FOR PRICE, WAIT FOR PRICE, WAIT FOR PRICE"

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es/pip
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Postby es/pip » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:41 pm

foreman01 wrote:As to asking MO to chat with me, I said I would put together a presentation and present it to others which I hoped would include MO. But he is the senior teacher in this thread and I would rather have one of more of his successful students try to explain what they are doingin their own words.

espip said: "I disagree with this statement 100%. This thread contains information that you cannot put a price tag on, and is hardly "ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting". "

I didn't mean to tweak you. Sorry. I did say "MANY of which are ambiguous, irrelevant, tangential, confusing, and conflicting. " "Many" not "all" I'm pretty sure that some, many, most or all would agree that at least some (if not "many") of the posts and pictures in this thread are not helpful.

So some of you can look at somebody else's trade; and say, "good job" and "on the 5 minute you had another chance to enter a little while later," etc. There are obviously some objective criteria that CAN be explained with words. Probably orally easier for most than by writing it all out.

Certainly it can be quantified to some extent. Otherwise there would not be so much agreement. Indeed, more than one trader has commented that he/she "does things a bit different" than others in regards to drawing zlines etc . If one recognized how they are doing things differently than there is something objective that is being analyzed. Otherwise what does one compare it too in order to assess "same" or "different."

I'm pretty good at explanations to almost anyone once I have a grasp of the material. Thus my offer. I consider a fairly nice offer, since it generally takes me hours and sometimes days to make a quality set of handouts and power point presentations that clearly express a set of ideas, and yet the presentation is usually less than an hour.

I envision some slides that might say:
For example: "In this situation trader1 draws a zline here because .... ; trader2 prefers here because .... "

I can't believe that there is anyone here -- successful or not -- who can't give an explanation of why they are drawing a zline, or defining a candle as a momo, or entering a trade.

When I practice trading with my boy I say, I am drawing a support line here because ...., and a resitance line here because .... The 4 hour trend is ...., but there is a long shadow and a bullilsh engulfing pattern .... Our risk to reward ratio is about 2/1 based on support and resistance. etc and so let's trade here with a stop here etc.


The explanations each of us gives for why we do something may be flawed, but we ought to be able to explain it. Its not a divine mystery.

A highly skilled educator said to me "If you can't explain it, then perhaps you don't understand it."


i am not tweaked at all. I just say what i am thinking instead of sugar coating it for people. its just how i am.

this debate could go on and on with no end to it

you say,

"I can't believe that there is anyone here -- successful or not -- who can't give an explanation of why they are drawing a zline, or defining a candle as a momo, or entering a trade."

and i say

i cant believe that no one can understand that the zl is drawn to show held profit. I cant believe that people cannot understand that momo is defined by a bar's body size relative to other bars body size.

you say

"A highly skilled educator said to me "If you can't explain it, then perhaps you don't understand it."[/quote]"

i say,

He is an educator not a trader. Trading has nothing to do with smartness. Sometimes highly educated people cannot understand this for some reason. They want it to always be 2+2=4, but sometimes it is 2+2=6 and it just is, there is no reason why. Trading is an art not a science.

i still do not agree that this can be explained like you want to do it. All the info is in the thread. How is it that 10 or so random people have come to understand it and not others? Ask monolisa, aliasmith, zap, dragon, fxtrav, pablo, fxjedi or anyone else i left out to explain it and what you are going to get is

body in direction of profit wick in direction of loss

trade in the direction of profit

momo shows the way

if it does not happen on consecutive bars treat it like s/r and trade away from it

a mz is 2x previous bar 50%-- any line can be a zl in that area.

zl mz are not entry techniques they are reference points/areas create your own entry technique


do not take this the wrong way, but have you read the entire thread and put what we have on our charts on yours?

again i may come of harsh or pissed at times but i am not. Its just how i am.
Last edited by es/pip on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bend over and assume the position for another 4 years of hope and change.

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Thank you for your support.


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