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onontsira
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Exits...

Postby onontsira » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:52 am

Still struggling at exiting where I should...

Do you guys have any comments?

(entry was late but ok, should have enter at 0.8972)
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Postby newscalper » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:46 pm

Thanks for the charts Doji, really appreciate it but still unclear.

It looks like you're entering on the basis of a single bar breaking the upper line (of a red bias zone) or the lower line (of a green bias zone), in which case, why were they called bias zones? i.e. a zone defining bias, when that is clearly the exact opposite of what they are, or are they?

I don't understand how that correlates to 'it takes momo to break momo' when you're defining momo as an RB? If momo is an RB, it takes an RB to break an RB and that isn't what you're drawing?

I don't know - I thought that was just indication of it being wicked? I'm still no wiser how you're fitting the 2 TFs into that? Unless there's then a pullback on the lower TF forming an RB followed by a single bar break again? But I was trying to show that with the prior charts I put up showing the 2TF RBs, it just doesn't happen that way. Or is the larger TF you're talking about used to define a range between a long and a short RB and then you trade between the two on the shorter TF?

The confusion across the board arises because no-one is able to explain it consistently...either that or we're all just thick. Which is likely :lol: And still, where is the exit, because especially with stacking, you are going to lose big time unless you know where you're getting out.

I really appreciate all the work you're putting in, I really do, but it's just getting more unclear as it goes on.

For example showing RBs on a day chart on one currency then a bunch on an H1 on a totally different currency, in total means? Are they supposed to correlate or something?

I'm on the verge of giving up TBH, all I do is lose money and I feel I've completely wasted 5 years of my life. Much of it trying to understand what's on kreslik :lol:

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Re: Exits...

Postby bettlebox » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Hi Onontsira,

from your comment "exiting where i should" says to me you have pre planned exit point (which is good) but finding difficult to get to that price level while price cycles up and down.

This my experience so far, im no means an expert. I found that entering a trade is easrier to do than holding a trade to your planned target. It takes 100 times the confidence to hold on to trade compared to entering a trade.

Entering is like split second decision and its over.But holding a trade is whole new ball game.

I like to sit at screen and watch my trades every step of the way (this is alot harder by way cause you are open to market illusions) reason for this cause i use disaster stop/losses.

I have find 2 methods that have helped me
1. While in a position and price is running to my primary target (often a Zline). I will focus on my stop/loss only, yes i have target and i remain aware of it. But what i found is if i focus on the target you start riding emotions as price moves forward to your target and then ebbs away. Over period time you get drawn into market illusions. By focusing on the stop/loss you don't get drawn in so easily. Usually you end thinking "give me my target or take my profit." instead of like someone at the horses willing their horse to line. :D

There is a level emotional resilence required to sit and watch a trade run to a given target. Each time you exprience this it makes you more resilent , tougher. Remember this.

2. Second method is a tool to find what triggers you emotionally. What you do re-run your trade in your mind from entry to exit.
(here is example)
1) entry (how did you feel?) - its a good setup
2) position went in to profit (how did you feel?) -yea go go go
3) position then went moved into negative (how did you feel) - ummm this isnt looking so good
4) position went to 1 pip of your stop/loss? - looks like a loss
5) position jumps up +20 (still 20 pips to go for your target) pips in your favour? PHEW!! that was close one
6) position moves against you 10 pips? - maybe i should take the +10pips cause price almost took me out, i had a narrow escape.

You take +10 pips, come back later and check charts too find price did reach your target.
(so triggers in above example would be step 5 & 6, coming from a negative feeling suddenly back to positive and then slow decline into a negative again. So your goal in next trade is to stay aware of emotional response. If price moves against you then you should be ready for the emotions to start running. Instead getting caught by surprise by it. )

Whats point all this? to show you where your soft spots are. Basically its tool to help you learn what your triggers are. Once you are aware of your triggers you can then do something about them. You know whats coming basically so you brace yourself. Do this enough times and it will become second nature.

I find just been aware of how and when the markets push my buttons is enough for me to over ride the emotions. Like anything in life if you keep practising this you will get better at it. Its a skill.It just take time and practise.

Of course you can avoid all the above just set hard stop/loss and hard take profit(or alert at your take profit area) and walk away from the screen. :D

Wheres the fun in that?

NB: dont be silly if your up 4:1 on a trade and you only 5-10 pips off your target. You not going to let price run all way back to your stop/loss and give all your profit back, there is a balance here.

BB

onontsira wrote:Still struggling at exiting where I should...

Do you guys have any comments?

(entry was late but ok, should have enter at 0.8972)
There are two forces acting upon us: Suffering pushes us forward from behind and pleasures entice us and pull us forward.

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Postby dojirock » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:08 pm

My guess my trading has evolved into stuff that is unrecognizable to some of you. I guess my style has gone more weighted to trading the breaks of momentum then stacking after a retrace. While many here are still trying to trade with a momentum. I have found for me to get my 30-80 pips, its easier to define where momentum has started and watch for those breaks and trade away from the old momentum if I had momentum in my favor already in the direction Im going. The momentum RB doesn not have to cross the previous momentum start line. it just has to exist to show it is pushing towards that line. For example the bearish RB, followed by a bullish RB tells me momentum is pushing into the previous momentum. I only take a trade if that momentum push is strong enough to close beyond the previous momentum start line. It doesnt have to visually, its like inertia...the force is there...or like trying to throw a ball upon a tall roof. If you cant throw it that high...its not enough force to overcome the roof. If you can, then your ball doesnt come back, right? If it clears the roof by 40 feet it only comes back 40 feet (retrace) to hit the roof, you never get your ball back. :)
Another example is picture yourself under a frozen lake, the ice symbolizes the momentum starting point. You jump off the bottom to get momentum, hit the ice, but was it enough to break thru and climb out? If not then im gonna bet im going back down. If I do climb out...im out of there(up). I look at high probabilites. These are very high. I dont need a ton of pips anymore due to the statistics and a special way I MM my lot size. I go 4 levels. I cant tell you the last time I lost 4 times in a row since I adjusted by trading plan. I use 4hr RB's in this example because they are strong. Im on a hourly time chart for entries. My entries in this method have nothing to do with 1 hr RBs. That being said, I do trade RB's 3 different ways but I dont mix them on a chart. There is a way to trade with the RB's and momentum, but its more a scalp for me these days. Im trading the breaks, the retraces are wicks if you go up time frames...its just too confusing to find the great trades with all the lines, wicks and momentum both ways. This method is one direction...the brand new momentum direction but only if it has enough force to break the previous momentum RB start line. As far as stacking...i disagree, but I will come back to that when i get more time...

I dont mind everyone posting there ways here, they really are the same. But when learning, that means your learning from everyone, in different teaching styles, and views. Even thought they are all basically the same, they dont appear to be.

doji


newscalper wrote:Thanks for the charts Doji, really appreciate it but still unclear.

It looks like you're entering on the basis of a single bar breaking the upper line (of a red bias zone) or the lower line (of a green bias zone), in which case, why were they called bias zones? i.e. a zone defining bias, when that is clearly the exact opposite of what they are, or are they?

I don't understand how that correlates to 'it takes momo to break momo' when you're defining momo as an RB? If momo is an RB, it takes an RB to break an RB and that isn't what you're drawing?

I don't know - I thought that was just indication of it being wicked? I'm still no wiser how you're fitting the 2 TFs into that? Unless there's then a pullback on the lower TF forming an RB followed by a single bar break again? But I was trying to show that with the prior charts I put up showing the 2TF RBs, it just doesn't happen that way.

The confusion across the board arises because no-one is able to explain it consistently...either that or we're all just thick. Which is likely :lol: And still, where is the exit, because especially with stacking, you are going to lose big time unless you know where you're getting out.

I really appreciate all the work you're putting in, I really do, but it's just getting more unclear as it goes on.

For example showing RBs on a day chart on one currency then a bunch on an H1 on a totally different currency, in total means? Are they supposed to correlate or something?
It always takes Momentum to break Momentum!
"A small loss is just as satisfying as a large gain" -MO
"Sometimes we need to stop learning and start thinking...."
"Once you stack, you'll never go back!"

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Postby bettlebox » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:58 pm

Hi Doji

Totally agree higher time frames and getting in as the party starts on new highertime frame swings. Its where i would like to get my trading to that point in future. Having to look for trades down on 5,15min is alot work, day in day out. I think term "work smarter not harder" applies here :D.

lol I like your analogies btw. I can see its possible to make the step up to higher timeframes.

Doji can you keep posting your trades in these higher timeframes?.

BB

dojirock wrote:My guess my trading has evolved into stuff that is unrecognizable to some of you. I guess my style has gone more weighted to trading the breaks of momentum then stacking after a retrace. While many here are still trying to trade with a momentum. I have found for me to get my 30-80 pips, its easier to define where momentum has started and watch for those breaks and trade away from the old momentum if I had momentum in my favor already in the direction Im going. The momentum RB doesn not have to cross the previous momentum start line. it just has to exist to show it is pushing towards that line. For example the bearish RB, followed by a bullish RB tells me momentum is pushing into the previous momentum. I only take a trade if that momentum push is strong enough to close beyond the previous momentum start line. It doesnt have to visually, its like inertia...the force is there...or like trying to throw a ball upon a tall roof. If you cant throw it that high...its not enough force to overcome the roof. If you can, then your ball doesnt come back, right? If it clears the roof by 40 feet it only comes back 40 feet (retrace) to hit the roof, you never get your ball back. :)
Another example is picture yourself under a frozen lake, the ice symbolizes the momentum starting point. You jump off the bottom to get momentum, hit the ice, but was it enough to break thru and climb out? If not then im gonna bet im going back down. If I do climb out...im out of there(up). I look at high probabilites. These are very high. I dont need a ton of pips anymore due to the statistics and a special way I MM my lot size. I go 4 levels. I cant tell you the last time I lost 4 times in a row since I adjusted by trading plan. I use 4hr RB's in this example because they are strong. Im on a hourly time chart for entries. My entries in this method have nothing to do with 1 hr RBs. That being said, I do trade RB's 3 different ways but I dont mix them on a chart. There is a way to trade with the RB's and momentum, but its more a scalp for me these days. Im trading the breaks, the retraces are wicks if you go up time frames...its just too confusing to find the great trades with all the lines, wicks and momentum both ways. This method is one direction...the brand new momentum direction but only if it has enough force to break the previous momentum RB start line. As far as stacking...i disagree, but I will come back to that when i get more time...

I dont mind everyone posting there ways here, they really are the same. But when learning, that means your learning from everyone, in different teaching styles, and views. Even thought they are all basically the same, they dont appear to be.

doji


newscalper wrote:Thanks for the charts Doji, really appreciate it but still unclear.

It looks like you're entering on the basis of a single bar breaking the upper line (of a red bias zone) or the lower line (of a green bias zone), in which case, why were they called bias zones? i.e. a zone defining bias, when that is clearly the exact opposite of what they are, or are they?

I don't understand how that correlates to 'it takes momo to break momo' when you're defining momo as an RB? If momo is an RB, it takes an RB to break an RB and that isn't what you're drawing?

I don't know - I thought that was just indication of it being wicked? I'm still no wiser how you're fitting the 2 TFs into that? Unless there's then a pullback on the lower TF forming an RB followed by a single bar break again? But I was trying to show that with the prior charts I put up showing the 2TF RBs, it just doesn't happen that way.

The confusion across the board arises because no-one is able to explain it consistently...either that or we're all just thick. Which is likely :lol: And still, where is the exit, because especially with stacking, you are going to lose big time unless you know where you're getting out.

I really appreciate all the work you're putting in, I really do, but it's just getting more unclear as it goes on.

For example showing RBs on a day chart on one currency then a bunch on an H1 on a totally different currency, in total means? Are they supposed to correlate or something?
There are two forces acting upon us: Suffering pushes us forward from behind and pleasures entice us and pull us forward.

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Postby dojirock » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:49 pm

Update
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eurjpyh1.png (56.97 KiB) Viewed 577 times
It always takes Momentum to break Momentum!
"A small loss is just as satisfying as a large gain" -MO
"Sometimes we need to stop learning and start thinking...."
"Once you stack, you'll never go back!"

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Re: Exits...

Postby onontsira » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:05 pm

bettlebox wrote:Hi Onontsira,

from your comment "exiting where i should" says to me you have pre planned exit point (which is good) but finding difficult to get to that price level while price cycles up and down.

This my experience so far, im no means an expert. I found that entering a trade is easrier to do than holding a trade to your planned target. It takes 100 times the confidence to hold on to trade compared to entering a trade.

Entering is like split second decision and its over.But holding a trade is whole new ball game.

I like to sit at screen and watch my trades every step of the way (this is alot harder by way cause you are open to market illusions) reason for this cause i use disaster stop/losses.

I have find 2 methods that have helped me
1. While in a position and price is running to my primary target (often a Zline). I will focus on my stop/loss only, yes i have target and i remain aware of it. But what i found is if i focus on the target you start riding emotions as price moves forward to your target and then ebbs away. Over period time you get drawn into market illusions. By focusing on the stop/loss you don't get drawn in so easily. Usually you end thinking "give me my target or take my profit." instead of like someone at the horses willing their horse to line. :D

There is a level emotional resilence required to sit and watch a trade run to a given target. Each time you exprience this it makes you more resilent , tougher. Remember this.

2. Second method is a tool to find what triggers you emotionally. What you do re-run your trade in your mind from entry to exit.
(here is example)
1) entry (how did you feel?) - its a good setup
2) position went in to profit (how did you feel?) -yea go go go
3) position then went moved into negative (how did you feel) - ummm this isnt looking so good
4) position went to 1 pip of your stop/loss? - looks like a loss
5) position jumps up +20 (still 20 pips to go for your target) pips in your favour? PHEW!! that was close one
6) position moves against you 10 pips? - maybe i should take the +10pips cause price almost took me out, i had a narrow escape.

You take +10 pips, come back later and check charts too find price did reach your target.
(so triggers in above example would be step 5 & 6, coming from a negative feeling suddenly back to positive and then slow decline into a negative again. So your goal in next trade is to stay aware of emotional response. If price moves against you then you should be ready for the emotions to start running. Instead getting caught by surprise by it. )

Whats point all this? to show you where your soft spots are. Basically its tool to help you learn what your triggers are. Once you are aware of your triggers you can then do something about them. You know whats coming basically so you brace yourself. Do this enough times and it will become second nature.

I find just been aware of how and when the markets push my buttons is enough for me to over ride the emotions. Like anything in life if you keep practising this you will get better at it. Its a skill.It just take time and practise.

Of course you can avoid all the above just set hard stop/loss and hard take profit(or alert at your take profit area) and walk away from the screen. :D

Wheres the fun in that?

NB: dont be silly if your up 4:1 on a trade and you only 5-10 pips off your target. You not going to let price run all way back to your stop/loss and give all your profit back, there is a balance here.

BB

onontsira wrote:Still struggling at exiting where I should...

Do you guys have any comments?

(entry was late but ok, should have enter at 0.8972)


I have noticed that I followed quite the same learning curve as you did because my aha moments came almost when you had yours. I also had the same issues as you especially "thinking in a box", candle by candle, and then after a long time realizing that price knows no timeframe... At that time, Blubbb custom candle indicator made a lot of difference for me in my quest for momentum (that was the time when you were starting to post custom candles charts).

We must be a little like minded somehow. Anyway, you are always ahead of what I "discover" so I will try to now concentrate on my psychology which, you're right, seems to be the problem at the moment, and also try to understand my triggers as you said. I'm really with you when you say that holding a position is much more difficult, even if "green", than entering a trade. To summerize, I think I'm not used to win and since it happens I tend to lose my nerves a bit. I am not enough confident for the moment so I always get scared when it goes my way so and get out too early thinking that price will reverse against me as it did so often in the past :P

Not a bad day but I still have some work to do as you can see

Thanks a lot for your help!

:smt023
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Last edited by onontsira on Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby dojirock » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:20 am

Update II
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It always takes Momentum to break Momentum!
"A small loss is just as satisfying as a large gain" -MO
"Sometimes we need to stop learning and start thinking...."
"Once you stack, you'll never go back!"

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Postby Dan » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:30 am

newscalper wrote:Thanks for the charts Doji, really appreciate it but still unclear.

It looks like you're entering on the basis of a single bar breaking the upper line (of a red bias zone) or the lower line (of a green bias zone), in which case, why were they called bias zones? i.e. a zone defining bias, when that is clearly the exact opposite of what they are, or are they?

I don't understand how that correlates to 'it takes momo to break momo' when you're defining momo as an RB? If momo is an RB, it takes an RB to break an RB and that isn't what you're drawing?

I don't know - I thought that was just indication of it being wicked? I'm still no wiser how you're fitting the 2 TFs into that? Unless there's then a pullback on the lower TF forming an RB followed by a single bar break again? But I was trying to show that with the prior charts I put up showing the 2TF RBs, it just doesn't happen that way. Or is the larger TF you're talking about used to define a range between a long and a short RB and then you trade between the two on the shorter TF?

The confusion across the board arises because no-one is able to explain it consistently...either that or we're all just thick. Which is likely :lol: And still, where is the exit, because especially with stacking, you are going to lose big time unless you know where you're getting out.

I really appreciate all the work you're putting in, I really do, but it's just getting more unclear as it goes on.

For example showing RBs on a day chart on one currency then a bunch on an H1 on a totally different currency, in total means? Are they supposed to correlate or something?

I'm on the verge of giving up TBH, all I do is lose money and I feel I've completely wasted 5 years of my life. Much of it trying to understand what's on kreslik :lol:


News, don't talk crazy. This is also my 5th year, I've spent hours on hours every week night watching charts( after brutal days at work), reading forums and too much time going through things on weekends. How can you get as good as Doji if you give up? you'll never know if you give up now. Some of us aren't naturals so it takes longer to "get it".
The best advice I can give you is have a few weeks off, you are over trading and probably just burnt out.
Stop over analyzing everything and just let it sink in

2 t/fs, the higher one has the overall bias.

eg 1hr and 15min.
only trade with and never against the 1hr momentum/zlines untill 1hr momentum over takes the last zline. Thats why the rockboxes work because they show if momentum has been over taken to make a new trend or just a retrace and continuation.

I don't have time right now to explain it with a chart but i'll get one up soon.

As far as the stacking goes, I stack when price has closed over a 15 or 5 min zline that was going the opp way as the 1hr, this shows that the retrace has failed and price is now falling in line with 1hr direction/trend. I bring my stop to b/e on stacks that way you never lose them, and can always enter again.

Dec and Jan were really good months for me but so far this month its turned to $%^ because I've been getting cocky haven't followed the rockbox rules or basically i've been trying to pick the tops and bottoms, its hard to change old habits.

Let your mind rest and let things sink in. Hope this helps.

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Postby Dan » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:37 am

P.S. Not trying to make your trading knowledge seem irrelevant, just trying to help with simplifying the process because thats the key in my opinion.

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