TRO DOPC & TRO BUY ZONE

post your indicators here

Moderator: moderators

User avatar
TheRumpledOne
rank: 10000+ posts
rank: 10000+ posts
Posts: 11430
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 9:31 pm
Reputation: 45
Location: Oregon
Real name: Avery T. Horton, Jr.
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Postby TheRumpledOne » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:19 am

geff:

"The moment your order gets filled, you're 3 pips in the hole. The price has got to shift 4 in your direction to get the 1 pip net profit. " is NOT a true statement.

I trade FOREX all day and half the night. That's not how it works with EFX.
IT'S NOT WHAT YOU TRADE, IT'S HOW YOU TRADE IT!

Please do NOT PM me with trading or coding questions, post them in a thread.

Please add www.kreslik.com to your ad blocker white list.
Thank you for your support.

geff
rank: 50+ posts
rank: 50+ posts
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:49 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male

3 In the Hole

Postby geff » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:36 pm

Avery, please help me to understand your comments.

[hr]"The moment your order gets filled, you're 3 pips in the hole." - Jeff

"That's not how it works with EFX." - Avery
[hr]How does it work with EFX?


Here's my understanding:

Assuming a 1 pip spread, the bid/ask is 1.9450/1.9451, you buy at 1.9451.
It was a mistake - you hit the wrong button! (or changed your mind, whatever...)

You instantly exit, sell for 1.9450 so you're down by 1 and EFX charges you around 2 pips in commissions. How does that not add up to 3?

Not that you want to make a career out of this, but the instant you enter, how are you not 3 in the hole?


[hr]"The price has got to shift 4 in your direction to get the 1 pip net profit. " is NOT a true statement." - Avery
[hr]So the price goes up by 4 pips. The bid/ask is 1.9454/1.9455.

You sell at 1.9454 for a gross of 3 pips (paid 1.9451, sold for 1.9454), pay the 2 in commissions and keep 1.


My statements were simply identifying the house's edge. The broker wins on every trade! Alexander Elder emphasizes the fact that the deck is stacked against you from the get go and that you have to be on the winning side just to break even.


What am I missing? What part am I getting wrong? Help!!!

Jeff in L.A.

zeller4
rank: 150+ posts
rank: 150+ posts
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:16 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Geneva, FL
Gender: None specified

Postby zeller4 » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:26 am

I think his comment was regarding the fact that some brokers' fee is based on the spread in lieu of commissions.

I normally look at the difference from entry to target (or exit) price as being the gross (Profit / Loss) less commissions (and fees). My understanding is that EFX doesn't charge the spread as a part of their fees. I'm currently using their demo account but don't have a funded account yet.
kz

geff
rank: 50+ posts
rank: 50+ posts
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:49 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male

Postby geff » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:47 am

Hi, kz.

I believe we are talking specifically about EFX.

[hr]"My understanding is that EFX doesn't charge the spread as a part of their fees." - Zeller4 / kz[hr]
Your're right, they don't charge for the spread but since we have to
* pay the higher price and
* sell at the lower price,
we need those price targets to move in our favor before we can break even.

How far? The spread plus the commissions.

The first pip of profit comes AFTER that.

Jeff in L.A.

User avatar
Patch
rank: 500+ posts
rank: 500+ posts
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:13 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Virginia
Real name: Jeff
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby Patch » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:32 am

Hi Geff

Your statements in the past few posts is my understanding, one or two point spread with EFX Group plus the commission that goes to them. The banks or institutions keep the spread.

Regardless, it is not a perfect trading world, and we need to understand how to trade profitably given all of the additional factors we know and are aware of and are not aware of. To say the least, I was blown away when TRO mentioned discussions he and I think Michal recently had with bank or institutional traders and all the information they have that we are not aware of. This is where I find mornings with www.paltalk.com with Avery and the rest of us pip pirates so valuable. I doubt there is anything like this anywhere on the web. Thanks to all of you all.

Patch the Pirate
In VA
ENOUGH being a Yalie for me Back to the Sea. "What i can lose, i can win" "YES YOU CAN" - dragon33 -"Pick one method and one pair and stick with them until you master it. "The choice is yours - success or failure." TRO

Please add www.kreslik.com to your ad blocker white list.
Thank you for your support.

User avatar
Patch
rank: 500+ posts
rank: 500+ posts
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:13 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Virginia
Real name: Jeff
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby Patch » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:34 am

PS Geff

Keep digging. I must say for myself this is a thread that is a great help. You have a very logical and incisive mind and you are asking questions I wish I had thought to ask. PtP
ENOUGH being a Yalie for me Back to the Sea. "What i can lose, i can win" "YES YOU CAN" - dragon33 -"Pick one method and one pair and stick with them until you master it. "The choice is yours - success or failure." TRO

geff
rank: 50+ posts
rank: 50+ posts
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:49 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male

Postby geff » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:28 am

Yo Patch.

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, Avery's morning show is great. I'm diggin' it.

As far as the spread goes, GAIN, IFX Markets, CMS and all the fixed spread brokers ARE making dough on the spread.

I think EFX is different. They're showing the best bid and ask (out of all of their sources) and making those prices available to us at their cost. (Correct me, if I'm wrong.)

The tradeoff is that their commission charges are higher and the rollover interest they pay is lower than other brokers I've compared them with. That's their business model.

Jeff in L.A.

User avatar
Patch
rank: 500+ posts
rank: 500+ posts
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:13 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Virginia
Real name: Jeff
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby Patch » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:51 am

Hey Geff

I took our poodle to the hair cut dog place and he looks great once again. Max is the nuttiest poodle I've ever had and he is training me well.

Look at futures and MB, EFX's mother ship.

Let me know what you think and are thinking.

Remember, Avery has been doing this stuff for a while and makes it look easy. We, you and I, need to learn what he has learned and trade on.

Patch the Pirate
In VA
ENOUGH being a Yalie for me Back to the Sea. "What i can lose, i can win" "YES YOU CAN" - dragon33 -"Pick one method and one pair and stick with them until you master it. "The choice is yours - success or failure." TRO

User avatar
TheRumpledOne
rank: 10000+ posts
rank: 10000+ posts
Posts: 11430
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 9:31 pm
Reputation: 45
Location: Oregon
Real name: Avery T. Horton, Jr.
Gender: None specified
Contact:

Postby TheRumpledOne » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:38 pm

Guys, you hit what you aim at. So if you focus on "being in the hole 3 pips right from the start", that's what you'll be IN THE HOLE.

If instead, you focus on taking the entries that are statistical winners, you're main decision is how much profit do you want to take this time.

It is that simple? YES!

It is EASY? Ease comes with time and experience.

I look at it this way, the first 2 pips (forex) or 2 cents (stocks) pays the commisions and fees. The rest is mine. That simiple. Debating/discussing the spread doesn't make you any money, TRADING DOES!
IT'S NOT WHAT YOU TRADE, IT'S HOW YOU TRADE IT!



Please do NOT PM me with trading or coding questions, post them in a thread.

geff
rank: 50+ posts
rank: 50+ posts
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:49 pm
Reputation: 0
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male

Postby geff » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:02 pm

Patch, where's Max's picture? I want to see the nuttiest poodle.

"Look at futures and MB, EFX's mother ship."
- in what regard?

Yes, Avery makes it look easy! I want me some of that and I have great respect and gratitude for his skills and abilities as well as the tools he generously shares with us.

I still have to get from "here" to "there". And that means starting with what I know or see (or think I know or see) and building from there.

Of course one could always opt for total amnesia and then start over from scratch.

Oh... sorry, what was I just saying?

Jeff in L.A.

Please add www.kreslik.com to your ad blocker white list.
Thank you for your support.


Return to “Tradestation indicators”