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MightyOne
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Postby MightyOne » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:55 am

dragon33 wrote:
MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:Hi everyone it has been a while since i posted in this forum. Everybody who was reading the babypips forum know i was trading really wel.
I gained a lot of money and then suddenly i was doing a lot of things wrong. I lost about 2000 euro. That was the point where i decided to go demo again.
At the same time MO was posting a lot about the zeroline.

If you use the zeroline in combination with some of TRO's techniques it is very powerful!!!

So thank you MO for your explenation, you brought me back on track. It is almost trading with laserprecision entry's. Keep posting MO i've almost learned as much from you as from TRO.

Greetings


I am sorry to hear about your troubles Dragon, but I am elated to hear that you are back on track.

I was really only going to show the basic idea of the ZL through breakouts of the extreme as my contribution to the community here and then continue on my merry way of reading TRO's posts.

It is amazing to see how many people are trading without a basic understanding of how and why price moves.


Hey Mighty, you brought me a clear view how price is moving i didn't know before. It sounds idiot but since i know i can trade again like i was doing before. The only difference now is that i understand why price is going back and forward.
It makes it so easy to wait for a good trade.
The last two weeks i was trading a lot with my new knowledge. I took 39 trades on a 5 min tmf 36 winners. The other are almost breakeven simple because you can wait to get a better price to take your loss.


Finally, someone who gets it :wink:

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More SL questions

Postby razorboy » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:54 pm

In theory, I understand the idea of using a stop loss level that minimizes your losses and adjusting it for volatility But my question is, on average, what size are your losses playing like this.

Personally, I have found that if I am going to lose 10 pips on a trade, I am usually going to lose 20, so I tend to keep my SL level at 10. Obviously, some of my entries are better than others. It might be that in my mind, if I was going to be willing to take a 25 pip loss (and I do end up taking it - which I sense you are not as your enteries are better than mine), I should have been going the other way to begin with as I would be more than happy with a 15 to 25 pip gain any day.

Any insight would be appreciated


MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:
MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:Hi everyone it has been a while since i posted in this forum. Everybody who was reading the babypips forum know i was trading really wel.
I gained a lot of money and then suddenly i was doing a lot of things wrong. I lost about 2000 euro. That was the point where i decided to go demo again.
At the same time MO was posting a lot about the zeroline.

If you use the zeroline in combination with some of TRO's techniques it is very powerful!!!

So thank you MO for your explenation, you brought me back on track. It is almost trading with laserprecision entry's. Keep posting MO i've almost learned as much from you as from TRO.

Greetings


I am sorry to hear about your troubles Dragon, but I am elated to hear that you are back on track.

I was really only going to show the basic idea of the ZL through breakouts of the extreme as my contribution to the community here and then continue on my merry way of reading TRO's posts.

It is amazing to see how many people are trading without a basic understanding of how and why price moves.


Hey Mighty, you brought me a clear view how price is moving i didn't know before. It sounds idiot but since i know i can trade again like i was doing before. The only difference now is that i understand why price is going back and forward.
It makes it so easy to wait for a good trade.
The last two weeks i was trading a lot with my new knowledge. I took 39 trades on a 5 min tmf 36 winners. The other are almost breakeven simple because you can wait to get a better price to take your loss.


Finally, someone who gets it :wink:

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Postby prochargedmopar » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:03 pm

I'm feeling that if you get THIS
"exit on extremes, enter on stops, exit on extremes"

You won't have to worry about getting THAT.
Proper entrance to a trade solves spreads, commissions, and s/l exit difficulties.

See this, dragon had profit on 36 of 39 trades.
All about the entrance.

Being I am not able to fully pick the proper entrance at this time I will have to side with razor for the moment. Get the best price I can by waiting for a 3-5 pip retraction at my point of entrance and then stop out at a catastrophic 10 pip loss using a 5-6 pip mental depending on price action at the moment.

You said: If you can see loss then you can see profit.

Think about it, If I am able to properly SEE price action and it's direction but picked the wrong point of entrance I will always be able to get back in for 2 pips. (thinking out loud) Why let it drop 18, 25, or 32 and then have to ride it back up to BE(you also said never give away easy money) or into profit when I can hop out and get back in at the BETTER entrance point. If I miss read price action I can let it go and sit on my trigger finger until another opportunity arrives.

I know that I will never again take a trade at a line after reading your stuff. I can always get 2-4 pip better price if I'm not hasty. If I miss it, oh well, see you next hr. little pipin buddies.

It's do this or die at this point.
Thankyou, Thankyou kind Sir M.O.
Procharged
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Trading Bible here> therumpledone/the-ideas-that-i-trade-by-t3256/page1670

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Postby razorboy » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:54 pm

side with me at your own risk..........


prochargedmopar wrote:I'm feeling that if you get THIS
"exit on extremes, enter on stops, exit on extremes"

You won't have to worry about getting THAT.
Proper entrance to a trade solves spreads, commissions, and s/l exit difficulties.

See this, dragon had profit on 36 of 39 trades.
All about the entrance.

Being I am not able to fully pick the proper entrance at this time I will have to side with razor for the moment. Get the best price I can by waiting for a 3-5 pip retraction at my point of entrance and then stop out at a catastrophic 10 pip loss using a 5-6 pip mental depending on price action at the moment.

You said: If you can see loss then you can see profit.

Think about it, If I am able to properly SEE price action and it's direction but picked the wrong point of entrance I will always be able to get back in for 2 pips. (thinking out loud) Why let it drop 18, 25, or 32 and then have to ride it back up to BE(you also said never give away easy money) or into profit when I can hop out and get back in at the BETTER entrance point. If I miss read price action I can let it go and sit on my trigger finger until another opportunity arrives.

I know that I will never again take a trade at a line after reading your stuff. I can always get 2-4 pip better price if I'm not hasty. If I miss it, oh well, see you next hr. little pipin buddies.

It's do this or die at this point.
Thankyou, Thankyou kind Sir M.O.
Procharged

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Re: More SL questions

Postby MightyOne » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:43 pm

razorboy wrote:In theory, I understand the idea of using a stop loss level that minimizes your losses and adjusting it for volatility But my question is, on average, what size are your losses playing like this.

Personally, I have found that if I am going to lose 10 pips on a trade, I am usually going to lose 20, so I tend to keep my SL level at 10. Obviously, some of my entries are better than others. It might be that in my mind, if I was going to be willing to take a 25 pip loss (and I do end up taking it - which I sense you are not as your enteries are better than mine), I should have been going the other way to begin with as I would be more than happy with a 15 to 25 pip gain any day.

Any insight would be appreciated


MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:
MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:Hi everyone it has been a while since i posted in this forum. Everybody who was reading the babypips forum know i was trading really wel.
I gained a lot of money and then suddenly i was doing a lot of things wrong. I lost about 2000 euro. That was the point where i decided to go demo again.
At the same time MO was posting a lot about the zeroline.

If you use the zeroline in combination with some of TRO's techniques it is very powerful!!!

So thank you MO for your explenation, you brought me back on track. It is almost trading with laserprecision entry's. Keep posting MO i've almost learned as much from you as from TRO.

Greetings


I am sorry to hear about your troubles Dragon, but I am elated to hear that you are back on track.

I was really only going to show the basic idea of the ZL through breakouts of the extreme as my contribution to the community here and then continue on my merry way of reading TRO's posts.

It is amazing to see how many people are trading without a basic understanding of how and why price moves.


Hey Mighty, you brought me a clear view how price is moving i didn't know before. It sounds idiot but since i know i can trade again like i was doing before. The only difference now is that i understand why price is going back and forward.
It makes it so easy to wait for a good trade.
The last two weeks i was trading a lot with my new knowledge. I took 39 trades on a 5 min tmf 36 winners. The other are almost breakeven simple because you can wait to get a better price to take your loss.


Finally, someone who gets it :wink:


If your trades were large enough in size to take notice of then traders would start to enter on your SL orders with such a close stop.

The wick will go as high as the last set of orders that were filled.

It is not wise to tell your self that you would be ok based on what the market did when your orders were not there to react to.

For most traders that wanted to use small stops I told them to resist the temptation to enter a market order and set a limit order where there stops would be and then have their SL above that.

Roughly a year and a half ago I did a lot of attempting to enter 5x position sizes with 5 pip stops for 25 pips risk; those are really sweet when they work and make you want to throw your computer when they don't.

I am just telling you what I do based on my own experience with the market and that small stops are the devil.
If you want to use smaller stops then use smaller stops!

I am not trying to be a guru :roll: I am here to learn more like every one else.

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Postby smartquant » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:57 pm

MightyOne wrote: It was the 5m range multiplied by 2.5 which is very close to the M15 480 range that I use now.
If I want to scalp then I use M15 range * 0.6666.

No matter what formula you use you want to place your stops based on the volatility of the pair you are trading.

You don't want to use a 15 pip stop with an avrg. range of 26 and lose 16% in 20 minutes.

When you size your position based on volatility then you stand a chance of making consistent returns and minimizing risk when things don't go your way.

+ there is no reason to size your trades so that you will be trading billions in 2 years time because IT IS NOT going to happen.

So calm down, widen your stops (4% risk max), and trade strategically.


Hi MightOne,

I was ready about using 2.5 times the 5min range for stops.

Is this 2.5 times the average range of the last X 5 min bars or simply 2.5 times the range of the last 5 min bar?

Thanks for your input.

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Postby razorboy » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:27 pm

MO,

some of us know more than others :)

I am going to try and read what was going through your mind when you were looking at this chart - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

In general the Euro was down vs the USD i believe - would be looking for short trades

Big Hourly bear bar (just at the edge of the screen) - traders see what they think is a reversal to a bull bar - they start to get in - but downward pressure is too great - some longer term traders would have used this reversal to cover, but not enough to make a difference - failed breakout

- potential for a sell stop order below the break out point - I know you seem to favor sell limits, but I am clueless here as to where I would put it. - this creates a Z line (save this for a later sell limit order.)

Next hour a-potential upside breaks out below the open line of the candle lots of short term traders would get in here, plus some of the traders who went short earlier in the hour (or earlier) would look to cover, especially as this candle passed the open of the previous candle - which was bearish

The following hour - another 2 potential upside break out - those who are short cover (earlier traders who had moved their stop losses up)- other people go long, Still not enough to push up (but it creates a Z line), but those who got in on the earlier attempted breakout are thinking they can still make a profit after hanging in through the down turn. Price pretty much finishes where it started price is transitioning from up to down - as price falls, the people who were trying to go long from the first potential upside breakout are heading underwater again - will liquidate positions and people who just tried to capitalize on the most recent breakout failed....driving price a bit lower

So knowing your love of limits, I would have said this is a down day, you are going to look to use the the Z lines of failed/previous upside breakouts to set limit sell orders - say about 5 pips above the z line - My mindset would have been to have sell stops at most recent failed breakout points

how wrong am I

MightyOne wrote:
Slam bam thank you mam...


Image

Take a profit or take a loss, but do not move your stop loss *echo*stop loss stop loss do not do not do not*echo*

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Re: More SL questions

Postby razorboy » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:46 pm

"For most traders that wanted to use small stops I told them to resist the temptation to enter a market order and set a limit order where there stops would be and then have their SL above that."

The above pertains to going short I am assuming (would be setting a limit sell order)

What I get from this is, you advice to someone who likes short stop losses is to set the trade up in your head, then build in an additional margin of error as your initial stop loss probably ends up being just at a point of reversal/trend exahustion) - Running thru my trading history in my head that sort of makes sense

Measure twice, cut once sort of deal

MightyOne wrote:
If your trades were large enough in size to take notice of then traders would start to enter on your SL orders with such a close stop.

The wick will go as high as the last set of orders that were filled.

It is not wise to tell your self that you would be ok based on what the market did when your orders were not there to react to.

For most traders that wanted to use small stops I told them to resist the temptation to enter a market order and set a limit order where there stops would be and then have their SL above that.

Roughly a year and a half ago I did a lot of attempting to enter 5x position sizes with 5 pip stops for 25 pips risk; those are really sweet when they work and make you want to throw your computer when they don't.

I am just telling you what I do based on my own experience with the market and that small stops are the devil.
If you want to use smaller stops then use smaller stops!

I am not trying to be a guru :roll: I am here to learn more like every one else.

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Re: More SL questions

Postby razorboy » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:51 pm

I guess what I have never really looked at is if I lose 10, will I lose 30 or 40. If I back off my limit entries to 20 pips off of my original entry target, which are usually stop entries.........interesting

MightyOne wrote:
razorboy wrote:In theory, I understand the idea of using a stop loss level that minimizes your losses and adjusting it for volatility But my question is, on average, what size are your losses playing like this.

Personally, I have found that if I am going to lose 10 pips on a trade, I am usually going to lose 20, so I tend to keep my SL level at 10. Obviously, some of my entries are better than others. It might be that in my mind, if I was going to be willing to take a 25 pip loss (and I do end up taking it - which I sense you are not as your enteries are better than mine), I should have been going the other way to begin with as I would be more than happy with a 15 to 25 pip gain any day.

Any insight would be appreciated


MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:
MightyOne wrote:
dragon33 wrote:Hi everyone it has been a while since i posted in this forum. Everybody who was reading the babypips forum know i was trading really wel.
I gained a lot of money and then suddenly i was doing a lot of things wrong. I lost about 2000 euro. That was the point where i decided to go demo again.
At the same time MO was posting a lot about the zeroline.

If you use the zeroline in combination with some of TRO's techniques it is very powerful!!!

So thank you MO for your explenation, you brought me back on track. It is almost trading with laserprecision entry's. Keep posting MO i've almost learned as much from you as from TRO.

Greetings


I am sorry to hear about your troubles Dragon, but I am elated to hear that you are back on track.

I was really only going to show the basic idea of the ZL through breakouts of the extreme as my contribution to the community here and then continue on my merry way of reading TRO's posts.

It is amazing to see how many people are trading without a basic understanding of how and why price moves.


Hey Mighty, you brought me a clear view how price is moving i didn't know before. It sounds idiot but since i know i can trade again like i was doing before. The only difference now is that i understand why price is going back and forward.
It makes it so easy to wait for a good trade.
The last two weeks i was trading a lot with my new knowledge. I took 39 trades on a 5 min tmf 36 winners. The other are almost breakeven simple because you can wait to get a better price to take your loss.


Finally, someone who gets it :wink:


If your trades were large enough in size to take notice of then traders would start to enter on your SL orders with such a close stop.

The wick will go as high as the last set of orders that were filled.

It is not wise to tell your self that you would be ok based on what the market did when your orders were not there to react to.

For most traders that wanted to use small stops I told them to resist the temptation to enter a market order and set a limit order where there stops would be and then have their SL above that.

Roughly a year and a half ago I did a lot of attempting to enter 5x position sizes with 5 pip stops for 25 pips risk; those are really sweet when they work and make you want to throw your computer when they don't.

I am just telling you what I do based on my own experience with the market and that small stops are the devil.
If you want to use smaller stops then use smaller stops!

I am not trying to be a guru :roll: I am here to learn more like every one else.

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Postby TheRumpledOne » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:20 pm

prochargedmopar wrote:What happened to the "two percent club"? chat room?


I was out of the country last week.

I don't know if the other admins opened it or not.

Should be open next week.
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