## Never Lose Again

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onontsira
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### Re: Never Lose Again

BambinoFlex wrote:
onontsira wrote:
cheunt3 wrote:Love to learn more about DOP

Everything started back in "MO's MBT Micro", just have a look. The main idea (which is in fact how markets really interact) is that momentum (or lack of momentum) forms from a conjunction of price level AND speed (speed is a function of time, thus the angled lines where in theory 90° is full speed and 0° is no speed). If you only look at price level ("where" aka horizontal price level), you miss half the information of what the market is telling you, because you don't know "when" (aka vertical timing).
So that if you observe the conjunction of angled lines IN ADDITION TO horizontal lines, you can then find where AND when something changes, you now have BOTH informations.

I would say that something always changes at "extensions of time" matching with "extensions of price level". I can't explain it better because my english is crap

Anyway, be sure that time analysis becomes mandatory once you understand that things are not only "price level" related

Have a nice day, and good luck to all of you guys

The question is how much (and what type) information can the DOP truly provide. The idea is simple, Price is on Y-Axis...Time is on the X-Axis...

Time is not only a variable, it's also a constant. Since all pairs have range (not as constant)....a measure of price over time...you will see that certain angles do indeed repeat themselves. MO said the DOP helps with consistency since zooming in and zooming out (the scale) of your chart affects the angles or the perception of angles.

I've seen MO's charts and they are impressive. Unfortunately, I have yet to understand if angles are predictive or if they simply help establish turning points. It could very well be both.

As of now, a close above or below the midpoint, buying or selling "pointy things", and targeting previous highs/lows aka a zero line...is the simplest yet very powerful trading plan with modest results. Moving it up to scaling in and scaling out, while managing risk, will result in EXTREMELY positive results...to the point where MO says that you can't lose.

Many asked Mo what he meant by "something" in many points he refers to the midpoint. Even drawing the middle of ranges (a type of combining candles-think Renko or other price dependent charts). Basing bias off the close of the previous candle in relation to its midpoint is extremely simple but it will work. You can take this idea across multiple tf and the results will be similar.

As for angles...I first need a consistent way of being marking them to be able to test them.

- - - - -

I think I understand what you're trying to say about the time extension and price extension relationship. It's similar to how TRO explained the 3 Level ZZ. If the sema to sema range is small, then look for a breakout...and vice versa.

IF TRO codes into the price analyzer or the Frequency Distribution a way to measure the distance between semas and be able to determine if candle 0 closed below/above what ever you want...Mid..Previous low/high...etc... while using candle 1 high/low as the candle where the sema last formed. It will show the relationship between time and price.

It's not really a focus of mine but it will definitely help in taking certain reversals (point thing trading).

Hi BambinoFlex,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I see we share many views on how things occurs but some differences remain and it is very constructive to discuss about them.

It will be difficult to avoid being simplistic because of my english language skills but I will try to expose what I mean.
The main difference, at least for me, resides here: a pip move is a pip move, in opposition to a time move which is different when you look at it from a different perspective (from a different TF).
A 10 pips move is a 10 pips move on M5, H1, H4, etc... The "extensions of price level" will happen in the same proportion on every TF, so we can extend the fibs on every TF with the same increment. To me, from the origin of the move, it will remain constant, it won't vary, that's what I understand of TRO/MO's saying "price is the same on all TF"

At the opposite, time dilates to produce momentum: it wraps around our fixed price fib (shows a pattern at extension of price level) and its dilation (extension of time) is different from one TF to another, thus different angled lines that change from one TF to another as fibs remains the same on all TF...

In short, for me: same incremented horizontal lines over price (fibs) BUT variably incremented lines over time (angles), and when they "match" each other we are left with a "new global" extension of one upon each other, so that the original pace is respected in some way, but we have a new information due to the variability of the angle. From the original price-level/time move, only time pace has changed (the angles changed) it has dilated to develop another move, ON ANOTHER TF, from the original fixed incremented price of the original move.

As for the angles and the "way to mark them", I would say that if you consider that the midpoint of price is 50% of a range, then the midpoint of time should be 45°. From this perspective and knowing that time dilates, when lines "match" again after the original move, then it generates a change on a higher TF...

I wish I could be better in english, anyway that's how I see markets from some time now. I think I am not the only one that has been blown away by this, please have a look here: post137745?hilit=diamond%20of%20perception#p137745
You will find that Jala says something I totally share: "This method of actually SEEING the price algorithm is the most perfect knowledge that was provided to us by MO back in the NLA thread" because it is also my belief that the combination of horizontal+angled lines is the only way to go: "Doing it this way and "fitting" the price action and then locking it is the best way to be 100% sure that YOUR line is YOUR LINE"

Have nice day!

Onontsira

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BambinoFlex
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### Re: Never Lose Again

onontsira wrote:
BambinoFlex wrote:
onontsira wrote:
Everything started back in "MO's MBT Micro", just have a look. The main idea (which is in fact how markets really interact) is that momentum (or lack of momentum) forms from a conjunction of price level AND speed (speed is a function of time, thus the angled lines where in theory 90° is full speed and 0° is no speed). If you only look at price level ("where" aka horizontal price level), you miss half the information of what the market is telling you, because you don't know "when" (aka vertical timing).
So that if you observe the conjunction of angled lines IN ADDITION TO horizontal lines, you can then find where AND when something changes, you now have BOTH informations.

I would say that something always changes at "extensions of time" matching with "extensions of price level". I can't explain it better because my english is crap

Anyway, be sure that time analysis becomes mandatory once you understand that things are not only "price level" related

Have a nice day, and good luck to all of you guys

The question is how much (and what type) information can the DOP truly provide. The idea is simple, Price is on Y-Axis...Time is on the X-Axis...

Time is not only a variable, it's also a constant. Since all pairs have range (not as constant)....a measure of price over time...you will see that certain angles do indeed repeat themselves. MO said the DOP helps with consistency since zooming in and zooming out (the scale) of your chart affects the angles or the perception of angles.

I've seen MO's charts and they are impressive. Unfortunately, I have yet to understand if angles are predictive or if they simply help establish turning points. It could very well be both.

As of now, a close above or below the midpoint, buying or selling "pointy things", and targeting previous highs/lows aka a zero line...is the simplest yet very powerful trading plan with modest results. Moving it up to scaling in and scaling out, while managing risk, will result in EXTREMELY positive results...to the point where MO says that you can't lose.

Many asked Mo what he meant by "something" in many points he refers to the midpoint. Even drawing the middle of ranges (a type of combining candles-think Renko or other price dependent charts). Basing bias off the close of the previous candle in relation to its midpoint is extremely simple but it will work. You can take this idea across multiple tf and the results will be similar.

As for angles...I first need a consistent way of being marking them to be able to test them.

- - - - -

I think I understand what you're trying to say about the time extension and price extension relationship. It's similar to how TRO explained the 3 Level ZZ. If the sema to sema range is small, then look for a breakout...and vice versa.

IF TRO codes into the price analyzer or the Frequency Distribution a way to measure the distance between semas and be able to determine if candle 0 closed below/above what ever you want...Mid..Previous low/high...etc... while using candle 1 high/low as the candle where the sema last formed. It will show the relationship between time and price.

It's not really a focus of mine but it will definitely help in taking certain reversals (point thing trading).

Hi BambinoFlex,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I see we share many views on how things occurs but some differences remain and it is very constructive to discuss about them.

It will be difficult to avoid being simplistic because of my english language skills but I will try to expose what I mean.
The main difference, at least for me, resides here: a pip move is a pip move, in opposition to a time move which is different when you look at it from a different perspective (from a different TF).
A 10 pips move is a 10 pips move on M5, H1, H4, etc... The "extensions of price level" will happen in the same proportion on every TF, so we can extend the fibs on every TF with the same increment. To me, from the origin of the move, it will remain constant, it won't vary, that's what I understand of TRO/MO's saying "price is the same on all TF"

At the opposite, time dilates to produce momentum: it wraps around our fixed price fib (shows a pattern at extension of price level) and its dilation (extension of time) is different from one TF to another, thus different angled lines that change from one TF to another as fibs remains the same on all TF...

In short, for me: same incremented horizontal lines over price (fibs) BUT variably incremented lines over time (angles), and when they "match" each other we are left with a "new global" extension of one upon each other, so that the original pace is respected in some way, but we have a new information due to the variability of the angle. From the original price-level/time move, only time pace has changed (the angles changed) it has dilated to develop another move, ON ANOTHER TF, from the original fixed incremented price of the original move.

As for the angles and the "way to mark them", I would say that if you consider that the midpoint of price is 50% of a range, then the midpoint of time should be 45°. From this perspective and knowing that time dilates, when lines "match" again after the original move, then it generates a change on a higher TF...

I wish I could be better in english, anyway that's how I see markets from some time now. I think I am not the only one that has been blown away by this, please have a look here: post137745?hilit=diamond%20of%20perception#p137745
You will find that Jala says something I totally share: "This method of actually SEEING the price algorithm is the most perfect knowledge that was provided to us by MO back in the NLA thread" because it is also my belief that the combination of horizontal+angled lines is the only way to go: "Doing it this way and "fitting" the price action and then locking it is the best way to be 100% sure that YOUR line is YOUR LINE"

Have nice day!

Onontsira

Thank you for sharing as well.

Price is the same on all tf is 100% correct.

- - -

I was thinking about the 45 degree angle being the midpoint of between 0 - 90 degrees but because price can go down as well...wouldn't the midpoint between 90 degree and -90 (270) be 0 degrees? A horizontal line? Which would lead us back to the idea of trading away or to a horizontal line. If price is closing above, sentiment is bullish. If closing below, sentiment is bearish. Would an angle then be able to determine and extreme or an exit?

I'm just having a hard time seeing it. The simplest of the angles would be 0 degrees and you're left with 2 choices. Using 45 degrees would potentially leave me with 4 choices. 2 above zero and 2 below zero. I did read jalarupas post but I'm not understanding it.
"If you're wrong, guess what...thats TRADING"

BambinoFlex
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### Re: Never Lose Again

cheunt3 wrote:Love to learn more about DOP

I saw your post on angles. What's your take?
"If you're wrong, guess what...thats TRADING"

kate682
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### Re: Never Lose Again

Could someone kindly let me know what 'DOP' stands for
Thank you
Empirical Trader
Current trade music :-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-TbQnONe_w&list=PLOOLsN0qpbu6FdXfoSe8HZgaRIE4S2ssC&index=1

BambinoFlex
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### Re: Never Lose Again

kate682 wrote:Could someone kindly let me know what 'DOP' stands for
Thank you

Hey Kate! Thank you for the indicator your shared.

DOP stands for "Diamond of Perception"

If you search the name and go to the last page you will see where MO starts talking about it.
"If you're wrong, guess what...thats TRADING"

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cheunt3
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### Re: Never Lose Again

BambinoFlex wrote:
cheunt3 wrote:Love to learn more about DOP

I saw your post on angles. What's your take?

I have found predictive benefit from 15 degree angles, cones and triangles, they are a kind of magic.

I'm not qualified to chat about DOP. It's a lot of fun thinking about speed doubling and halving but the wider my chart goes, the more confused I get.
MO "Don't try to predict what will happen next, simply aim to consistently apply your ideas."

onontsira
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### Re: Never Lose Again

Hi again BambinoFlex,

Time will not reverse, it will only go to the right of the chart AND it will only go up or down; so that from full speed up to full speed down you have a total of 180°. If you divide this 180° "range" in two, by putting a line in the middle, you have 90°one way (up) and 90° the opposite way (down).

So, for demonstration purpose: we should speak of the middle of this semi-circle as 0 (being no speed at all), theorical full speed up would be 90°, theorical full speed down would be -90°. If everything between 0° and +90° will define up speed and everything between 0° and -90° will define down speed, then 45° AND -45° will both be "speed midpoints", where 45° is "midpoint speed up" and -45° is "midpoint speed down"

And this is for timing/velocity only, not to be confused with price level (horizontal lines). Price level is Y (fibs), and "time level" which we can also call "speed" is X (angles), they interact one in regard of the other, but each one only shows what it represents.

You can take decisions based on Y alone but in this case you only know where to look at from an "horizontal point of view", because that's only "where", only one dimension of the chart, you don't have timing at this point of your analysis. Now imagine that you could base your decisions on X ("vertical point of view") in addition to Y, both together interacting in one place at one time...

Another analogy I can try in order to explain what I mean (physics related), and even if it is hazardous, maybe it will more explicit: price is the object, it has a mass and its mass's name is "price level" (only pushed up or down), timing is the "motion" (speed, only pushing the object away to the right of the chart). MASS X MOTION is MOMENTUM (or lack of it). "Mass in motion", "mass combined with its velocity", "a place which is an extension of price level where I wait for a change in speed", that's what I'm looking for.

Momentum happens AND is located at the break of 2 equilibriums: the break of price level midpoint combined with the break of time midpoint. You can replace "midpoint" by "range" in some way.

X and Y combined in one "moment" is a cross you can draw on your chart, thus "momentum"...

Everybody will use different techniques to trade, because everybody sees the charts differently (I personaly use something close to Dragon Style), and that's not my goal to show "another way to skin the cat", and to discuss things that are already very well known such as "a proper MM is key". My purpose here is just to tell you that timing is essential because, to me (and for some others here), it is the other half of the analysis when it comes to take decisions. My opinion is that it has been really underestimated here because people are primarily focused on horizontal lines. Timing adds another dimension that allows us to trade momentum where and when it happens, that's priceless.
Even if we see the chart differently, we all should look at the whole chart (2 dimensions). I ignored it for a long time when I was more active on this forum, but since I understood that it is crucial, I added DOP/angles to my analysis, and it has been a game changing transformation.

I enjoy exchanging different points of view and I can't explain this part of what I see better, unless we start speaking french , my english is reaching its limits

Anyway, some"thing" (pattern) happening some"where" (fib) at some"time" (angle), all together + Space as MM, sounds to me like a powerful trading plan.

I wish I convinced you of the importance of diving into DOP sooner or later.

What do you think?

Onontsira

kate682
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### Re: Never Lose Again

BambinoFlex wrote:
kate682 wrote:Could someone kindly let me know what 'DOP' stands for
Thank you

Hey Kate! Thank you for the indicator your shared.

DOP stands for "Diamond of Perception"

If you search the name and go to the last page you will see where MO starts talking about it.

Thank you and always happy to share code, if you'd like anything else just let me know, i have a lovely kit of script tools which i've jiggled together over time
Empirical Trader
Current trade music :-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-TbQnONe_w&list=PLOOLsN0qpbu6FdXfoSe8HZgaRIE4S2ssC&index=1

kate682
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### Re: Never Lose Again

Ref Diamond of perception (DOP), the problem i've always had with it, is the changing lines on mt4, if DOP drawn on monthly for instance, even if linked to two highs exactly, will not even remotely correspond as you go down two or more timeframes, so each timeframe has to almost be traded in its own right. There is also, in my view a timeframe problem, numerically they do not correspond to each other in terms of math differential. That is the problem with timeframe analysis. Would be better to say 10 mins, 60mins, 360mins etc.

The way i get around this is to merely anchor everything to my preferred trading chart, the 5min. (Yes i know i used to trade m1, but i used adr 30 5% stop and adr 30 10% minimum take profit, the five mins, with average 30 bars is about the same as 5% 30 adr. The 1min doesn't allow for that math in terms of spread. )

Any thoughts comments appreciated.
regards
Kate

ps) i've added my much loved jiggled lightweight MTF semafore indicator to mt4's indicators on kreslik. I prefer to use H1 semafors on my m5 to save all the clutter and giver higher probability space starts. Yes i love space. Best mo teachings ever.
Empirical Trader
Current trade music :-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-TbQnONe_w&list=PLOOLsN0qpbu6FdXfoSe8HZgaRIE4S2ssC&index=1

BambinoFlex
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### Re: Never Lose Again

onontsira wrote:Hi again BambinoFlex,

Time will not reverse, it will only go to the right of the chart AND it will only go up or down; so that from full speed up to full speed down you have a total of 180°. If you divide this 180° "range" in two, by putting a line in the middle, you have 90°one way (up) and 90° the opposite way (down).

So, for demonstration purpose: we should speak of the middle of this semi-circle as 0 (being no speed at all), theorical full speed up would be 90°, theorical full speed down would be -90°. If everything between 0° and +90° will define up speed and everything between 0° and -90° will define down speed, then 45° AND -45° will both be "speed midpoints", where 45° is "midpoint speed up" and -45° is "midpoint speed down"

And this is for timing/velocity only, not to be confused with price level (horizontal lines). Price level is Y (fibs), and "time level" which we can also call "speed" is X (angles), they interact one in regard of the other, but each one only shows what it represents.

You can take decisions based on Y alone but in this case you only know where to look at from an "horizontal point of view", because that's only "where", only one dimension of the chart, you don't have timing at this point of your analysis. Now imagine that you could base your decisions on X ("vertical point of view") in addition to Y, both together interacting in one place at one time...

Another analogy I can try in order to explain what I mean (physics related), and even if it is hazardous, maybe it will more explicit: price is the object, it has a mass and its mass's name is "price level" (only pushed up or down), timing is the "motion" (speed, only pushing the object away to the right of the chart). MASS X MOTION is MOMENTUM (or lack of it). "Mass in motion", "mass combined with its velocity", "a place which is an extension of price level where I wait for a change in speed", that's what I'm looking for.

Momentum happens AND is located at the break of 2 equilibriums: the break of price level midpoint combined with the break of time midpoint. You can replace "midpoint" by "range" in some way.

X and Y combined in one "moment" is a cross you can draw on your chart, thus "momentum"...

Everybody will use different techniques to trade, because everybody sees the charts differently (I personaly use something close to Dragon Style), and that's not my goal to show "another way to skin the cat", and to discuss things that are already very well known such as "a proper MM is key". My purpose here is just to tell you that timing is essential because, to me (and for some others here), it is the other half of the analysis when it comes to take decisions. My opinion is that it has been really underestimated here because people are primarily focused on horizontal lines. Timing adds another dimension that allows us to trade momentum where and when it happens, that's priceless.
Even if we see the chart differently, we all should look at the whole chart (2 dimensions). I ignored it for a long time when I was more active on this forum, but since I understood that it is crucial, I added DOP/angles to my analysis, and it has been a game changing transformation.

I enjoy exchanging different points of view and I can't explain this part of what I see better, unless we start speaking french , my english is reaching its limits

Anyway, some"thing" (pattern) happening some"where" (fib) at some"time" (angle), all together + Space as MM, sounds to me like a powerful trading plan.

I wish I convinced you of the importance of diving into DOP sooner or later.

What do you think?

Onontsira

Thank you for your insight
"If you're wrong, guess what...thats TRADING"

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