2009.07.04 INDEPENDENT FROM WHAT?

[Patch]

es/pip

Thanks for posting this url. I was just about to shut down for the night, and saw your post. Very interesting, es do you know more background on what the ticker guy said? Saturday at the DC Tea Party I saw several signs saying End the Fed and Get rid of the Fed NOW. I had made a mental not to look into this because I've always wondered about the FED.

Patch

[es/pip]

es/pip

Thanks for posting this url. I was just about to shut down for the night, and saw your post. Very interesting, es do you know more background on what the ticker guy said? Saturday at the DC Tea Party I saw several signs saying End the Fed and Get rid of the Fed NOW. I had made a mental not to look into this because I've always wondered about the FED.

Patch

no idea

not sure

i know when bernanke was asked about auditing the FED, he laughed and said, "oh we don't want to do that" it was in an article i cant find it though

scum bags they all are

[rjmann]

Lets say they actually ended the FED, and that ended Fiat money, do you think there would still be trading? Anybody?

[PTG]

Lets say they actually ended the FED, and that ended Fiat money, do you think there would still be trading? Anybody?

Yes, even if we're going to have to live in the proverbial caves.

END the FED !!

[bredin]

I would want to be part of a society with NO government ANY day. BUT guess what, gunverment won't LET me ! Slavery has NOT ended, despite what the textbooks state.

Slavery, like torture, has merely had its definition changed to something meaningless:
(Bush had his legal team redefine 'torture' to mean only physical interrogation during which death occurs, so he wasnt 'lying' when he said "We dont torture"; the definition is so narrow as to be meaningless.)

'Slavery' has been redefined since the 60's to only include chattel slavery (when one man owns a title deed to another), when the actual definition is closer to 'one man owning another mans LABOUR'. The redefinition is meaninglessly narrow, and doesnt include such well known conditions as usury, employment, tenancy, serfdom and vassalage.

One of my favourite quotes comes from one of Adam Smiths protoges: "The man who sells only his labour is a slave and while we admire what he produces, we despise what he is"

Cheers
G

[PTG]

I would want to be part of a society with NO government ANY day. BUT guess what, gunverment won't LET me ! Slavery has NOT ended, despite what the textbooks state.

Slavery, like torture, has merely had its definition changed to something meaningless:
(Bush had his legal team redefine 'torture' to mean only physical interrogation during which death occurs, so he wasnt 'lying' when he said "We dont torture"; the definition is so narrow as to be meaningless.)

'Slavery' has been redefined since the 60's to only include chattel slavery (when one man owns a title deed to another), when the actual definition is closer to 'one man owning another mans LABOUR'. The redefinition is meaninglessly narrow, and doesnt include such well known conditions as usury, employment, tenancy, serfdom and vassalage.

One of my favourite quotes comes from one of Adam Smiths protoges: "The man who sells only his labour is a slave and while we admire what he produces, we despise what he is"

Cheers
G

There is nothing wrong with somebody selling his labour on a voluntary basis.

However, the value of the means of exchange (fiat money) is being manipulated by the central banks in unison with governments, with them not allowing for the option to use an alternative to that fiat money should one so desire. Competition in monies is not allowed. This devalues that labour without the consent of the labourer.

Also, the Keynesian habit of governments to perpetually spend more than they receive (which on a personal or company level will and should lead to bankruptcy) leads to higher debtlevels that needs to be serviced by higher taxes, more borrowing (from whom ?) and more money printing leading to higher inflation (= inherent taxation).

Tax is not voluntary, it is coerced. We are being told that we HAVE to pay for the greater good and that this higher, collective goal is "civilized" where these monies are being used to do all kind of silly things that you and I cannot approve of. Part of our labour is being taken away without us having a say about what happens with that money. This is nothing else but slavery, period.

The people a couple of ages ago who supposedly were worse off than we are and who HAD to pay 10% of their earnings to the king were better off then we are. How is THAT for civilisation ?? Is that SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE as the followers of Marx and the like are trying to sell us ?

"Civilisation" as we know it is a scam. The debt system, invented by the Rothchilds that needs to be serviced by us, the slaves, is a scam. There is no freedom. We're like COWS on a farm: freedom 'till the fence and being milked several times a day. This HAS to change. Unfortunately, the majority, probably WAY beyond Pareto's 80% does NOT see what's going on and doesn't have a clue. Until then, the villan banksters plus politicians can do whatever the heck they want.

Yes, we DO need CHANGE, BIG time.

[bredin]

PTG, you'll get no argument from me on any of that, with the exception of voluntary slavery.

I dont think theres any such thing: most people feel the need to submit to slavery under the coercion of their indebtedness to other people. By which I mean rent/mortgage, car payments, credit cards, et al, ad nausium.
It may begin voluntarily, but the initial flush of cash invariably leads to an increase in lifestyle, a new car (financed, of course), a house, a big TV, and next thing they know is they CANT STOP THEIR OWN SLAVERY.

Since they dont want to see their own condition they make up lies to cover their own shame: its called status. "I'm Uber Paper Clip Manager", they proclaim to their friends. "The promotion came with a company car, and a phone!" These things are called 'golden chains', because they look shiny and valuable but really just keep people slaves "I cant quit, then I wont have a car".

Paycheques are addictive. And like crack it only takes one hit to get someone hooked. Dont believe me? Ask someone whos mainlining paycheques to go cold turkey for 90 days. Its only a matter of time before the usual withdrawal symptoms present themselves : Anxiety, Insomnia, Panic, Depression, Anger... But its ok, I can get another hit; all I have to do whore myself for another week, just until that cheque comes in again.

Slavery, the choice of a new generation...

Gods I love trading!
G

[PTG]

Bredin,

I said in fact 2 things:

1. There is nothing wrong with somebody selling his labour on a voluntary basis.

2. Tax is not voluntary, it is coerced.

You're talking about neither. You're talking about people's greed and their willingness to sell their soul to the devil so to speak. They do this on a voluntary basis; nobody forces them. This is a typical human weakness that is being played by the debt based monetary system which is a true monopoly enforced by the state.

Your post doesn't contradict my post; to the contrary, it is complementary. I hope you actually see this; if not, let me know please and we'll chat about it a bit further !

[highlight=red]END the FED !![/highlight]

[bredin]

Now, I think we come to philosophy And I do agree with you, Im hoping a discussion along these lines will get people thinking.

I'll repeat my quote from earlier with some emphasis for clarification:
"The man who sells ONLY his labour is a slave and while we admire what he produces, we despise what he is"

This is precisely what most people are taught to do: sell only their labour.

I believe most people choose slavery over freedom because of something very Machiavellian- that it is easier to make a slave of someone if they come to it of their own free will. You do this by creating the conditions in someones life where they must ask you for help. At this time they become your Bitch.

So we have the situation where a kid grows up seeing parents and friends parents with jobs, paying their mortgages, buying stuff with credit, working for the weekend. This is reinforced through media et al. As they get older they are encouraged to 'get a job' so they can have some spending money. In school they receive guidance from someone who tells them to get an education so they can become a better class of slave, ie one with more money. Along the way they are likely to hear of the 'evil, greedy businessman' or the 'nasty landlord' or the litany of 'network marketing scams' from friends and tabloid 'journalists', all of which discourages pursuit of other financial avenues.

Unless the child goes out of his way to look, no other option than slavery is likely to be presented for consideration.

Given the well established pattern of slavery, presented as freedom, called normal, and with few other options ever seen, is it still voluntary?

Once this model has been accepted, getting people to accept a usurous currency backed by forced taxation is easy.

G.

[Patch]

es/pip & The Pipping Pirates

Here is a picture a friend took on September 12 of the small crowd at the Capital. I count 27 people so it was a good size turnout after all.

Patch
On the Capital Steps on the Right of Center
Waving The Jolly Roger